Rethinking Theater Etiquette | Art is the tool

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Transcript

Julian Harper:

Hello. Welcome. This is Art Is the Tool, the Art-Reach podcast about art, disability and all that entails. Art-Reach is a disability advocacy organization working to transform the cultural arts sector into a place for, by and with disabled people. I am Julian Harper, your host. I am the communications director here at Art-Reach. I’m joined by my co-hosts and colleagues.

Why don’t you guys introduce yourselves?

Maggie Brennan:

Cool. Hey, y’all. I’m Maggie. I am the communications manager here at Art-Reach, and I’m super excited to be here today.

Adrienne Beckham:

Hi. I am Adrienne Beckham. I am the executive coordinator here at Art-Reach and, much like Maggie, I’m also very excited to be here.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

I guess that just leaves me. Hi, everyone. I am Alasia Destine-DeFreece. I am the program coordinator over here at Art-Reach. I’m also, surprise, surprise, excited to be here.

Julian Harper:

Thank you. Well, we wanted to explore theater. I feel like, Maggie, you were really the thought originator for the theme of today’s episode, so if you could talk about it?

Maggie Brennan:

Oh, absolutely. I sure do have a BA in theater from Temple University. When I think about accessibility and how it pertains to theater, one of the first things that I think of is relaxed performances and pro-shots of professional theater productions.

Really quickly, what’s a relaxed performance or a sensory-friendly performance? They kind of use it interchangeably depending on the organization. Generally, a relaxed performance is designed to accommodate audience members who require a little more flexibility from a theater experience. In particular, these performances are extremely welcoming to theater goers who are neurodiverse. And so a relaxed performance may include, but is not limited to adjusted lighting in the audience area, adjusted sound levels for music and other effects, the reduced use of strobe light effects. Patrons are allowed to move freely in the auditorium and aren’t expected to sit still, and patrons may enter and exit the auditorium as needed.

In conjunction with relaxed performances, some theaters or shows might provide a social story which is a short synopsis of what the audience is about to see on stage and an explanation of key moments in the plot. For example, in the UK production of Frozen, the Disney Broadway musical, Hans at relaxed performances will walk out on stage and be like, “Hey, everybody. My name is…” insert actor name. “I play Hans, and so, today, you’re about to see me do some really bad things that hurt some people, but just know that I am not that person. And so when you see me come out on stage after the show for bows, I’m no longer in that bad-person zone. I am just a guy. Enjoy the show.” He might also say, like, “Elsa, at this point is going to cry or scream very loudly because she’s very upset,” just so that people know what to expect going into it.

Julian Harper:

And so to frame our discussion around accessibility in theater, we have chosen to look at two particular performances, pieces, the first being Sunday in the Park with George, a play that, again, Maggie had brought to our attention, featuring the wonderful Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters. So this is a recording made available on YouTube that we engage and we’re going to talk about and then a little known-

Maggie Brennan:

Nobody knows it. We’re about to say something-

Adrienne Beckham:

Yeah. Super, super, indeed.

Maggie Brennan:

… very niche. Everybody.

Julian Harper:

Hamilton. It’s Hamilton, your man, Lin-Manuel and gang. You’ve seen them. We’re just going to talk about their particular influence, how they relate to relaxed performance and how recordings are becoming more popular and what that kind of means. Yeah, let’s get into it a little bit maybe just comparing them, because they’re very different ways to enjoy musical theater performance so.

Maggie Brennan:

The pro-shot that we watched to talk about in today’s episode was originally taped with the original cast in 1985. It was then broadcast on American TV on a couple different networks the very next year, most predominantly on PBS, the Public Broadcasting System, and then it was released on VHS and DVD in the ensuing years. But it’s this idea that for a really long time theater, especially Broadway theater, in the United States was seen as something that, of course, lived and breathed in New York City, but different teams would record it and send it off to the Library of Congress as a historical artifact to mark that production and history with the people that it served, that had been in the cast.

So as musical theater as a genre has continued to exist and it has begun to be more expensive to produce, et cetera, et cetera, now, we’re at the point where it’s really hard for a lot of people, and it’s always been hard for a lot of people to try to get there there selves to New York to go see a show. And so because not every production is deemed worthy of being recorded for archival purposes even if it’s really popular like Heathers, people, laypeople who are real excited about the thing will go in and do a bootleg recording, which is an unauthorized recording, usually on their iPhone or iPad or whatever device. But then those recordings are uploaded to YouTube for free. People can view them for free, and it allows people who are fans and allows people who maybe are going to just stumble upon it themselves to be introduced to this art in a new way.

Adrienne Beckham:

Yeah. I also think, too, thinking about cost, it’s not also just the monetary cost, too, but the physical cost of actually getting yourself to a theater particularly if you want to see a Broadway show, like getting yourself to New York if you are in Rhode Island or even further. The physical cost of having to arrange that travel and go through that on top of the exorbitant amount of money you might have to spend on a ticket and on any sort of transportation tickets or gas, that’s a lot to consider. And then, when we’re talking about accessibility and if you are a person who has a disability, all of that you have to then factor into your own ability to actually do all of those things. So I think that, yeah, just to tack on, cost is something that we don’t consider, and it’s something that we don’t consider in a lot of different forms of cost.

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah. Absolutely. And also that just made me think of like there are some things that, in particular, larger theaters not just in New York, but around the country, more professional regional theaters have a lottery system or a rush system that can provide discounted tickets, but it’s a lottery system. I know people, I have good friends who have camped out in front of Broadway theaters for hours to try to get a ticket to see a particular actor in a particular performance. And, sometimes, you sit on the cold, cold, hard ground of New York City for seven hours and then you have to go home because you didn’t get the lottery chance. So it’s just like a system that is known for being really like, “Oh, die hard fans will go the extra mile to do,” and it’s like, “Okay. Well, what if I’m a die hard fan and I can’t stand in line for seven hours?” That’s not feasible for most people.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

And that’s just to get into the show. Once you’re actually at the show, in the house, in your seat, can you enjoy it? Are there things that are put in place for you regardless of your abilities or disabilities? Are you able to actually sit down to that show that you paid for and watch it with your full attention? And that’s why, kind of a segue, but I really loved the pieces that you included about… What’s her full name? Was it Jess Thom?

Maggie Brennan:

Yes.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Yes, the theater maker who has Tourette syndrome and is also a wheelchair user. There was something that both Jess had said that was I thought really relevant, prevalent, as well as a few other people cited in some articles, but the idea that the only place they knew that they could enjoy the show and not disrupt, doing air quotes there, other audience members was on stage. So the idea that having to adhere to certain spoken or unspoken rules in theater spaces, which can be very elite spaces, that you’re putting your energy towards trying to be a good audience member, more air quotes, and then you’re not actually able to sit down and enjoy the show.

Julian Harper:

Yeah. I was definitely thinking about the ways that I like to interact with my media, which is to talk to it, to question it. There was also a note in one of the etiquette rules about not saying anything negative. I maybe understand that, but I also feel like, if I have an opinion, I’m going to say it. And so, yeah, it’s interesting, and I’m sure we’ll talk about this more, but there was a quote particularly about it, that it’s hard to explicitly say who you’re trying to exclude in whatever performance that you’re creating, but these rules do a really good job of implicitly doing so.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Yeah, that whole part where Jess Thom was like, “Oh, write a list of the people who you want to exclude.” And it’s like that idea seem so ridiculous, but, at the same time, isn’t that exactly what’s happening? We’re just skirting around what is trying to be said because it’s clearly not okay to actively bar certain people who don’t act a certain way, dress a certain way from seeing art.

Adrienne Beckham:

I also think it’s really interesting one of the articles that we read particularly around the rules that you should follow framed it as like, “Now that we’re coming back from COVID,” kind of a thing. And that makes me think of we went through COVID and a lot of people were isolating, a lot of people spent a lot of time with themselves. And I think it’s interesting because I feel like, a lot of people, it gave people the opportunity to experience themselves outside of the social rules and constructs that govern day-to-day life because we were all alone.

And so it’s like now that we’ve had that experience of learning what it feels like to experience media in the way that you desire, it’s really jarring to then come back into the theater space and have these rules sort of imposed on you again. It’s like we’re at this interesting moment of we’re all like, “Hey, maybe this, we’ve experienced what it feels like to be a human and interact with art just by ourselves.” How do we then now dismantle maybe the rules that we’ve had in the physical spaces enjoying art so that we can preserve the beauty that we found in experiencing art authentically as our human selves without trying to fit ourselves into these oppressive rules that we had been previously?

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Totally. That lack of freedom to be human and move in these spaces is so interesting especially. As both Maggie and Adrienne have said, theater is about humanity, and we’re ignoring our own humanity. And then something else I was thinking about as you talked about movement and wanting to stand up, I know that there are shows where the actors are going to be utilizing the aisles. And I do love a good “oh, I’m in the action” kind of moment.

Maggie Brennan:

It’s like an-

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

I get…

Maggie Brennan:

… immersive theater work.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

… excited. I’m like, “Okay, give me more university theater. I love it.” But considering universal design, I don’t see why, in a playbill or that kind of material, it can’t say in, “Act two, scene three, a character will come down stage left and be on the right aisle,” or something like that, because that gives me the chance to plan ahead. I might. Unfortunately, I read the rules. We shouldn’t be going to the bathroom if it’s not intermission, God forbid, but if I do have to use the bathroom because, unfortunately, I’m human, I would love to do so knowing that I’m not about to interrupt an actor’s path of mobility or their blocking or any of that. And it seems so simple to just give us all the information we could have as an audience member to better move around the space with respect for the actors rather than making it a mystery where then we might get caught up in the blocking because we didn’t know that act two, scene three was a bad time to go to the bathroom.

Julian Harper:

What you’re saying makes me think a lot of how people who aren’t necessarily against accessibility when it comes to adapting a particular work of art, but they’re contrarians in the sense that, like, “Doesn’t that change the artwork? Doesn’t that change the ability to interpret if you already know what’s going to happen?” or, like, “Is there a different value to the recorded version because it’s technically a different thing?” They might say, “This is an entirely different artwork, and so we’re going to value this differently,” and so, “The live experience is the true and… It’s how it’s meant to be seen,” and so that’s how we will determine those things.

And I think, in a lot of ways, relaxed performances can also be presented in this way that’s like, “This is not necessarily the intended way for this particular thing to be experienced. And so maybe we’ll let some people know a week before this particular performance happens once throughout the entire runtime of the show.” It’s interesting to see how some people use the intention of the artwork as a way of making those particular anti-access decisions. One of the articles talked about being concerned about cannibalizing different sales of live and with the digital production, but I think we’re always thinking, like, “Let’s do all of that.” Let’s just-

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah. Yeah. And on the topic of Hamilton specifically, because that’s one of the most recently and widely acclaimed and widely desired pro-shots that was released on Disney+, after it’s released, Lin-Manuel Miranda who wrote it, I think we’ve said that, the guy in charge, said that releasing the pro-shot, quote, forever demolishes the idea that a beautifully shot version of your show diminishes the demand to see it live. In all of our estimations, it’s only amplified the demand to see Hamilton live. He also said it was, quote, a win for theater. And to have more pro-shots and have them out in the world, I think is a win. I would love to see more of that going forward.

Adrienne Beckham:

I agree, Lin.

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah. Right?

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Shout out to Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Julian Harper:

Yeah. No. That’s awesome. I mean, I was also thinking about their… even just this cinematic quality of that recording allows for like… I can see it better.

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah. You can see the moments the actors are having and the connections that they’re having that made the show so popular in the first place for its caliber performance. You’re seeing it so up close and personal.

Adrienne Beckham:

Yeah. It offers something that you don’t get live, which is interesting, and that’s kind of what I was thinking about in comparison with Sunday in the Park with George, which I’m about halfway through, but great production, never seen it, but definitely shows what we can do now because it’s a great… Would you call that a pro-shot as well?

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah, I would call it definitely because it was professionally shot. But it’s more in this style of an archival recording so it doesn’t disrupt any of the staging or original choreography. It’s just showcasing it.

Adrienne Beckham:

Exactly. Yeah, that kind of feeling is what made me think like, “Okay, this is very much I’m viewing a theater production.” And what we have the power to do now ala Hamilton is get close, is give you something a little bit more that, as Julian said, might be a different piece of art in a way. But shouldn’t that be celebrated?

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Yeah. I feel like, too, it’s just the opportunity as an artist to be a better artist because you have the opportunity to take your work and view it from a different lens and then sort of play with it and think about all the new ways you can achieve the same goals that you had for the original piece of work in a new format. I think, as an artist, to me, that seems like a fun challenge and an opportunity. Not to shade any artists who think otherwise, but-

Julian Harper:

I will.

Maggie Brennan:

But go off, king.

Julian Harper:

No. No. I think that’s great, and if I can remember, but I… yeah, I’m definitely interested in how… Like what do we learn from these recorded versions and how can we bring that into the live space? I think about how easy the captions are, how easy is the audio description. It being in a form that requires it, I mean, every single show on Disney+ has those access parts to them. And just seeing how valuable that is, how so many of us now just watch things with captions because our comprehension of the work is so much stronger when we have those words available, even learning from a movie theater space, you can get a little bit more rowdy, you can laugh, you can talk a little bit. I mean, a bunch of movie people are fearmongering about that, that they’re worried that people won’t go back to theaters, which is obviously untrue, and people just want easy access to movies. But, yeah, I’m definitely interested to see how this pushes theater forward in a way that acknowledges, like you’re saying, Alasia, that we have bodies and that maybe-

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

We have torn bodies.

Julian Harper:

And maybe instead of forcing everyone to fight their body throughout the entire length of a performance that we engage them and, yeah, which I think is the whole point of being live in that space, is that the actors and everybody’s working off of each other I imagine. And I think one of the articles gets into that where there’s this bouncing off that can happen in a relaxed performance that is exciting when you don’t temper the emotional response to the work.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Absolutely. How am I supposed to go watch the Sound of Music or whatever and not sing along?

Adrienne Beckham:

We need more sing-along productions actually.

Maggie Brennan:

Right? That’s just-

Adrienne Beckham:

Right.

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah. But also, as somebody with a performance background, I know what it’s like to be up there and to be really in the moment and doing my work and to have somebody in the audience respond to something that is happening in front of me and going like, “Ooh,” or, like-

Adrienne Beckham:

Mm-hmm.

Maggie Brennan:

I love that kind of stuff because, number one, it lets me know that I’m doing a good job and, number two, it’s like fuel to the performance. It’s fuel to the art, and it’s also a really good reminder that this is a communal space not just for the performers, but also for the audience. Our hearts are all breaking together. We’re all laughing together. We’re all going through this experience together. And access should be a part of that. It’s kind of crazy that it’s not in a lot of cases. So, yeah, I’m really interested to see going forward how relaxed performances and pro-shots keep pushing the larger echelons of the industry and the art form to keep going back to community and going back to, like, “Why are we telling this story, and how can we tell it for everybody?”

Julian Harper:

Nice.

Adrienne Beckham:

As someone who’s a gasper, it’s good to hear that someone on the stage is okay with that when I’m surprised during a show. I mean, I went to see the opera a few months ago, and there were some twists. I gasped, and it’s-

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

As you should.

Adrienne Beckham:

Yeah. I’ve had film professors say that it’s so important to go see a movie in a theater because of that sense of community. And, like you said, that’s why we’re doing it. So why try to shut that down?

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

Yeah. Not to jump into a completely different art form and space, but I just think about the difference between the theater experience and going to a concert. And part of the concert experience, I imagine, for a musician is the fact that you do get to watch the audience respond in real time to what you’re doing. And that is part of the interplay of that experience. And it does, to your point, Maggie, it creates a sense of understanding of how it’s going, and it creates that kind of fuel and it changes the nature of the performance in ways that I don’t think anyone would say hurts the experience. It only helps or adds to it. So it’s interesting to me that we allow it for that art form and not for theater, which is much more, or maybe not much more, but it’s just as entrenched in the idea of humanity which we’ve been saying all through this recording. Yeah, it’s very interesting.

Maggie Brennan:

Yeah, and I know that a large part, a lot of the articles had say, like, “These are the rules. This is the etiquette,” come back and talk to a lot about respect for the form and respect for the performance. And yes, of course, I don’t know, that makes sense, but also it’s hard because the way that that respect is enforced is through shame, and it prevents people from coming back if they’ve been in a performance and have done something to upset somebody two rows behind them and they are excused or they are told off at intermission or whatever. And it just reinforces the idea that this isn’t a space for everybody. So, yeah, it’s hard. It’s a fine line, but also relaxed performances exist to allow people to just be. And they’re extremely important and they should be allowed to just be maybe a little more than what we currently allow.

Alasia Destine-Defreece:

I also think, too, and I think this goes for all kinds of different accommodations, but no one is saying that quiet performances are going your way just because we’re bringing in relaxed… If you want that quiet experience, more power to you, go forth, prosper. It really is about opening up choice and the ability to choose your own humanity.

Adrienne Beckham:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julian Harper:

Yeah. I mean, I think that part of me, and I feel like I see this in all sorts of different art forms, that people butt heads with the idea that the artwork is important above all and that it is that. You were talking about respect. And I think that’s a great way to explain how people talk about it, that the work is sacred and it has to be experienced in a very particular way, and that to not do so is disrespectful. I think what relaxed performance gets at is that those rules are not only arbitrary, but they exists not to preserve the work, but to alienate the right kind of person, that what is considered rude is determined by one specific person about another specific person, and that whose dignity gets to be preserved is determined by a particular person, and I think that… What I think we’re getting at with our conversation is that we’ve experienced and we’re talking about a number of different forms that serve to possibly respect the dignity of a disabled person. That focus and pivot doesn’t diminish the value of any work of art.

Maggie Brennan:

Totally.

Julian Harper:

I feel like that’s a good place to stop. I want to thank my co-hosts for talking with us today. You can learn more about Art-Reach at art-reach.org. I’m Julian Harper. Have a good one.

The music for this podcast was written and performed by Carl Trunk from Pop Pop Pop Records. You can check out this song, It’s a Creepy Stormy Day, and others from Pop Pop Pop Records on Bandcamp.